The Struggle...The Battle Begins...

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Postby plop » Sun Jan 27, 2008 7:20 am

...Or Luke 22-25, 26, 27: "The kings of the gentles exercise lordship over them, and those who exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. But you shall not be so; but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief as he that serve. For whether is greater, he that seated at meat, or he that serve? Is not he that seated at meat? But i am among you as he that served".

And you, anarchist, think that you invented something. Funny.

Now, about the true. I beleive in the existance of a universal true, i do. And i take the risk to asume that is one of those presented. But one thing that i can not accept is that prooven values in persons with others decisions aren't good. If a muslim, a christian, a buddist or an atheist, or any one from any other beleive or disbeleive do something good, it has to be worthfull. I beleive in a single truth, but not in a simple truth. Wehn a jew pray that pray is worth, even if it is not mine. Jesus pointed persons of great faith even if they weren't jews, and he (as a man) was a jew, so he wasn't an integrist. He says to a samaritan woman: "God is a Spirit, and wishes to be workshipped in spirit and true", after diminishing the importance of where are performed the rituals. He allways putted first ethics (Oh, yes. He sayd also to the samaritan woman "we the jews workship what we know, meanwhile you the samaritans workshpi what you don't know, because the salvation comes from the jews. But the hour is coming and it is, when the rals workshipers of God will workship him in spirit and true". Jhon, 4-23)

There is a quote from Paul that rationalistics never alude. Romans 2-15 "And therefore they proove that the demands of the Law are inscribed in their hearts. You will be judged by your own counscience, and your own reason will accuse or excusse you". I confess that my quotes aren't too literals. Go there and confirm if i am lying.

Apparently, even Saint Tomas of Achinni wrote something like: "Even if a religious authority commands us something against our counscience, we must obey our counscience". Not the style of what happened, but enough to proove that aberrations were indeed aberrations and not what was intended.

Indoctrinated in peace, respect. In a God who forgive and shows mercy beyond is required by the Law ("The one who is free of guilty throw the first stone"). A Gos showed among apparents contradictions that points toward paradoxes, and, therefore, not needing to have every one in "his group" in order to recognize that person as His child. The God and the Gospel about which Giusieppe Ricciotti wrote: "The war is the most integral dny of the Gospel", in the introduction of his "Life of Jesus".

Do i have The Truth? Let's suppose hypotetically, off course, that appear proofs of Jesus resurrection and that the gospels are accurate even for modernm standars*. Even so, "no one has seen God". So, even if there were no other possible choice but to admit that "i" am right, still i wouldn't have The Truth, still God calls every one to a individual level and every one is judged by his/her own counscience (and that last isn't sure. It is said that God knows us better than we know ourselves, and will jusge with biger mercy)

*What i have reed point to the conclusion that there is at least a "realistic background" with at least some historical characters, and geographical, urbal and political accurates details.
"The heart has reasons that reason can not understand" Blaise Pascal :D
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Postby Dazza » Thu Feb 07, 2008 8:50 pm

Hey Kaz, you might appreciate this.

http://media.richarddawkins.net/audio/2 ... Cleeds.mp3

The smackdown near the end reminded me of you. :P
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Postby plop » Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:56 am

Jesus Christ and Budda carried a message that strongly disaproved many traditions holded care at their ages and situations. (surely there are anothers examples, but those are the easiest to remember)

Also, there are many beleivers that beleive because they have decided to do so; even people who wasn't a beleiver for a long time, and later -usually after a long and complex personal process- became a beleiver upon personal bases.

Finally, it is funny how Profesor Dwakins's has authority enough as to disaprove any authority except what he considers acceptable... :wink: (That is the sort of reason that makes beleivers recognize a sort of faith in non beleivers; they have the same emotional process than beleivers)

Appendix: If all those ancient wars were caused by religion as the main, if not only reason, as Mr. Dawkins seems to point, how does he explain, for instance, that in Spain, during the period when there were christians and muslim kingdoms, ussually christians kingdoms fought each other, and muslim kingdoms fought each other aswell, even having the same religious alignement? I means, all those christians kingdoms were catholics.

It is true that religion uses to shape group identity, and therefore is in constant menace of being manipulated for political goals. But when it became less important, in the XIX century, did the number of wars decreased significativelly?
"The heart has reasons that reason can not understand" Blaise Pascal :D
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Postby NESCAFE_DELIGHTS » Mon Feb 25, 2008 2:42 pm

Alif. Lam. Mim.

This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).


Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them;


And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter.


These depend on guidance from their Lord. These are the successful.


As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not.


Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.


And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.


They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.


In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie.


And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.

Are not they indeed the mischief-makers? But they perceive not.


And when it is said unto them: believe as the people believe, they say: shall we believe as the foolish believe? are not they indeed the foolish? But they know not.

And when they fall in with those who believe, they say: We believe; but when they go apart to their devils they declare: Lo! we are with you; verily we did but mock.


Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.


These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.


Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,


Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.

Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers (in His guidance, His omniscience and His omnipotence).


The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things.

(TAKEN FROM THE LAST TESTAMENT...THE NOBLE QUR'AAN)
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Postby plop » Tue Feb 26, 2008 1:20 am

I know it is a mistake to make this thread to grow any larger, but...

"Many first will be last, and many last will be first". I can not accept the pretension that people who doesn't beleive -in despite of some of them having a high ethical standar- will be condemned. As ludicrous as to affirm that all who beleive, disregarding how they behaved, will save.

Not after all the considerations about ethics demandings in the Gospels. I am sure that there is a muslim tradition similar to what i have said.

Pseudo edition: (I haven't posted yet, so...) It doesn't matter if i increase this thread; the only people who will come here are Nescafe_delights and my self :lol:
"The heart has reasons that reason can not understand" Blaise Pascal :D
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Postby Dazza » Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:42 am

Charlie Brooker The Guardian, Saturday August 2 2008
Must be frustrating being a scientist. There you are, incrementally discovering how the universe works via a series of complex tests and experiments, for the benefit of all mankind - and what thanks do you get? People call you "egghead" or "boffin" or "heretic", and they cave your face in with a rock and bury you out in the wilderness.

Not literally - not in this day and age - but you get the idea. Scientists are mistrusted by huge swathes of the general public, who see them as emotionless lab-coated meddlers-with-nature rather than, say, fellow human beings who've actually bothered getting off their arses to work this shit out. The wariness stems from three popular misconceptions:

1) Scientists want to fill our world with chemicals and killer robots; 2) They don't appreciate the raw beauty of nature, maaan; and

3) They're always spoiling our fun, pointing out homeopathy doesn't work or ghosts don't exist EVEN THOUGH they KNOW we REALLY, REALLY want to believe in them.

That last delusion is the most insidious. Science is like a good friend: sometimes it tells you things you don't want to hear. It tells you the truth. And we all know how much that can hurt, don't we, fatso?

Many people find bald, unvarnished truths so disturbing, they prefer to ram their heads in the sand and start dreaming at the first sign of scientific reality. The more contrary evidence mounts up, the harder they'll ignore it. And even the greatest, most widely-admired scientists can provoke this reaction. Take Darwin. Or rather, take The Genius Of Darwin (Mon, 8pm, C4), the latest documentary from professional God-hatin' Professor Yaffle impersonator Richard Dawkins, which sets out to calmly and lucidly explain a) Why Darwin was so ace, and b) Just how much evidence there is to support his findings.

Darwin's theory of evolution was simple, beautiful, majestic and awe-inspiring. But because it contradicts the allegorical babblings of a bunch of made-up old books, it's been under attack since day one. That's just tough luck for Darwin. If the Bible had contained a passage that claimed gravity is caused by God pulling objects toward the ground with magic invisible threads, we'd still be debating Newton with idiots too.

Since Darwin's death, Dawkins points out, the evidence confirming his discovery has piled up and up and up, many thousand feet above the point of dispute. And yet heroically, many still dispute it. They're like couch potatoes watching Finding Nemo on DVD who've suffered some kind of brain haemorrhage which has led them to believe the story they're watching is real, that their screen is filled with water and talking fish, and that that's all there is to reality - just them and that screen and Nemo - and when you run into the room and point out the DVD player and the cables connecting it to the screen, and you open the windows and point outside and describe how overwhelming the real world is - when you do all that, it only spooks them. So they go on believing in Nemo, with gritted teeth if necessary.

What was it that spooked them so? Probably natural selection's lack of reassuring narrative. It lays the ruthless, godless world pretty bloody bare. As Dawkins says: "The total amount of suffering in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute it takes me to say these words, thousands of animals are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, feeling teeth sink into their throats. Thousands are dying from starvation or disease or feeling a parasite rasping away from within. There is no central authority; no safety net. For most animals the reality of life is struggling, suffering and death."

Woo-hoo! Compare and contrast with the plot of Finding Nemo and it's easy to understand why people would rather believe in the purdy singing clown fish. But this is our reality, people. Like the man says, there's no safety net - so since we're all in this together, we'll have to make our own. And we can't do that with our eyes and minds shut now, can we?
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Postby Dazza » Fri Jan 09, 2009 8:38 am

Get on board the atheist bus!

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Today, thanks to many Cif readers, the overall total raised for the Atheist Bus Campaign stands at a truly overwhelming £135,000, breaking our original target of £5,500 by over 2400%. Given this unexpected amount, I'm very excited to tell you that 800 buses – instead of the 30 we were initially aiming for – are now rolling out across the UK with the slogan, "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life", in locations all over England, Scotland and Wales, including Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, York, Cardiff, Devon, Leeds, Bristol and Aberdeen.

From today's launch, two hundred of the buses will run in London, because the campaign was originally started as a positive counter-response to the Jesus Said ads running on London buses in June 2008. These ads displayed the URL of a website which stated that non-Christians "will be condemned to everlasting separation from God and then you spend all eternity in torment in hell … Jesus spoke about this as a lake of fire prepared for the devil". Our rational slogan will hopefully reassure anyone who has been scared by this kind of evangelism.

In addition, we're running adverts on two further types of media. In my last Cif blog on the campaign, I asked Cif readers for ideas on alternative ways to spend the funds, and also for thoughts on different slogans. Commenters WoollyMindedLiberal, PaoloV and Catch22 suggested that we use quotes from famous freethinkers, and we've done just that: from Monday January 12, 1,000 tube cards will run on London Underground featuring atheist quotations from Douglas Adams, Albert Einstein, Emily Dickinson and Katharine Hepburn (see above), alongside the original campaign slogan.

An animated version of the slogan will also appear on two large LCD screens on Oxford Street (opposite Bond Street tube station), so that you can see the advert live without having to wait for an atheist bus. And, to thank all donors and show the strength of atheism in the UK, every ABC advertisement will contain the line "This advert was funded by public donations".

Amazingly, the campaign has now gone international. Spain's Union of Atheists and Freethinkers are launching buses across Barcelona today with a translation of our slogan, Italy's Union of Atheist, Agnostics and Rationalists are also planning to roll out atheist buses, while the American Humanist Association have been inspired to launch a campaign, and buses carrying their slogan "Why believe in a God? Just be good for goodness' sake" have now been running for over a month in Washington DC. Sadly, not every country has been so open to the idea: the Atheist Foundation of Australia tried to place the slogan "Atheism – celebrate reason" on buses, but were rejected by Australia's biggest outdoor advertising company.

The campaign's success is thanks to Cif and Cif readers. If Matt Seaton hadn't allowed me to run with the idea here, and so many of you hadn't been so enthusiastic about it and donated generously to it, it would never have happened. There may be further campaign developments, and the campaign website and Facebook group will be regularly updated with the latest news; but for now, I hope you enjoy seeing the adverts on the streets, and that they brighten these bleak January days just a little bit. As Charlie Brooker – one of the first people to donate to the Atheist Bus Campaign – says: "Public transport in Britain suggests there isn't a God anyway, but in case anyone hasn't noticed, or feels isolated for thinking such a thing, this campaign should help." I hope it does.
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Postby Shantih » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:55 pm

One of those drove past me yesterday. I waved at it.

No one on board waved back, the wankers.
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Postby Dazza » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:30 pm

Maybe because they were just told - "First stop - hell."

:P
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Postby buttsie » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:14 pm

In bristol that equates to morris dancing boot camp...lol http://www.bristolmorrismen.co.uk/

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Postby plop » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:31 am

"will be condemned to everlasting separation from God and then you spend all eternity in torment in hell … Jesus spoke about this as a lake of fire prepared for the devil"

And with that sort of "evangelization" paraphrasing what they say later- they are doing nothing but provoking that :(

I know, I know; it is useless. But still, I will say that I have read the Canonic Gospels like six or seven times, and there are statements from christ that don't agree with that, but reinforces the ethic duty. Even more than the belonging to an specific group.

Not that Jesus didn't speak about the hell, but in many parables He claims that to act in a right way is more important than to stay in a right group.
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